Riding the Sine Wave of "Hallelujah": An Interview with Joy Gill

Joy Gill came aboard as executive director of the Dance Exchange in May 2002. Her background is in organizational management and consulting, primarily in healthcare, as director of a large nonprofit healthcare facility and, recently, working with service organizations in the for-profit healthcare world. Interviewing her on August 7, 2003, at "Hallelujah/USA" on the University of Maryland campus, I asked her about the effects of "Hallelujah" on the Dance Exchange, its place in the local and national picture, and what it takes to keep such an active organization alive in an unhealthy funding climate. —LB

Dance Exchange Executive Director Joy Gill and her children, Daniel, Kayleigh and Natalie, in the Smith Center lobby after "Hallelujah/USA" performance. Photo by Linda Burnham

Linda Burnham: What do you think about the Dance Exchange's place in the D.C. Metro community?

Joy Gill: The question I put before the company as a strategic matter is: Are we a local company that performs nationally or are we a national company that happens to be local? Both of those scenarios have much different implications. I think our desire, for a number of reasons, is to become a more integral part of our community, the greater D.C. area, though expanding into more of a regional presence in the tri-state area. With the plethora of other dance companies, there's a lot of competition for the audience in DC.

I think our community needs to be bigger than the D.C. metro area to give the artists the room to do our community work. You can't inundate any particular geographic area with overlapping programs. Even though we feel our approach is unique, the funding is limited from the local resources. And they're not going to fund two projects that are perceived to have the same type of purposes and outcomes. I think there are other areas to go to do very meaningful work that are within an hour's reach and aren't defined by the D.C. metro area, so I draw our local circle just a little wider.

LB: What kinds of work are you doing at home?

JG: Education is a big area. We're continuing our community exchange program into the fall and spring of this year, in which we bring basically anybody that wants to come and participate in movement and experience some of our process. We hope to resume Senior Exchange in the spring. We're continuing with our Teen Exchange, which has been a very successful program. It's not just a "drop your kid off at the dance studio for an hour of modern technique" program, it's a much more involved process. This year they're also going to be learning how to mentor peers and research grants from community foundations. We're going to be able to pay an administrative stipend to a teen to organize workshops, so they're going to learn project management skills, some clerical skills and they're going to learn what goes into a production. Then in the spring the teens will go out to at least three high-school-level community organizations, working with some high-risk or high-peer-pressure groups. And the teens are going to be teaching the content and leading these groups. They are going to be getting an opportunity that they would not have otherwise had though a more conventional dance program.

LB: Great modeling for their students.

JG: It is, and we're hoping that the experience teaches them how to negotiate in their own peer groups, how to plan, how to get their point across in a different way, and they can teach their peers how to do those things as well.

LB: Can you talk about being in the Washington area? This area certainly has a unique character because of being the national capital and all the politics that go on, the advocacy and lobbying.

JG: I think if that's your home community, by default you are national to a degree because your constituents are not necessarily people who live in D.C. all the time. They interact with DC. So just by virtue of your location, you have some national audience, and attention.

LB: And reach, too.

JG: We're looking for partners here in the area of civic dialogue. We think we do a very good job in that area. We learned a lot from the "Hallelujah" project about how to interact and cull out what the real issues are in a community. A lot of those are politically motivated. We're looking at working with political action groups that may represent different sides of an issue. The work that we did in Detroit got the attention of someone in D.C. interested in the Shaw District in the Anacostia, an area where there is a lot of revitalization, often at the expense of what's there. Some folks are interested in us participating in a civic-dialogue project because they were familiar with the work that we did at the shipyard in New Hampshire, the work we did in Detroit, to chronicle the history of the area in both those places. We are integrating our humanities component in some way within each project we approach.

LB: That really helps to identify the identity of the area: It actually exists, there are stories about it, people live here.

JG: And, whether change is right or wrong decision, how can you move beyond that? You'll never have people come down on the same side of that issue, but if change is imminent, how do you preserve and honor what has been? How do you make people feel good about the legacy of that area continuing? And is there room to carve out, if not a physical space, some other tribute to that history? And some times it's the flip sides of that: Things aren't moving quickly enough. You see areas that are destitute, in dire situations, that need social intervention desperately. And the question is: Why this community versus this one? It's always interesting to flip the questions around.

LB: You could do all your work here in DC if you're interested in that aspect.

JG: We could. And I think that probably begs the question of the national versus local from a touring perspective, and how much work we want to do here. The work that we do nationally informs the work that we do here. It gives us perspective. It helps us focus better when we're here.

LB: What new and exciting things came out of "Hallelujah" for the Dance Exchange?

JG: One thing that's exciting is what's not new. As I have started to educate myself on the project over the last few years, there's been a great deal of commonality of themes that I don't think were evident when the project was started. Or that they don't even realize exist when they're in the midst of a project. If you kind of boil away the very specific story that's unique to that location, you start to find some common themes: displacement, the change-versus-constancy theme. We found that there are different ways to elicit that information from communities, and I think we can get to the point more quickly now, because we can see that there are some common themes in communities.

LB: What is your role in the organization now?

JG: We have begun to focus internally on the business of being a nonprofit and staying in business. That's what I'm here to do. We've been able to better let the artists be the artists and do the process and really shore up our infrastructure, so I can send Liz out into the field with the confidence that we can get through this process and here's how we're going to support you. We have salaried our full time company members, with benefits, and – in return - they have assumed administrative roles. I think that's very interesting to tie them in and help them understand what it takes to get this stuff done in the field, because they've been so distant from the organization physically for the last several years in touring. And how do we tie the administrative side to the artistic side? Because it's difficult for them have been sitting here making it happen without ever getting to see what the artists are doing. So, this project ["Hallelujah/USA"] is so compelling for us because it's really the first time that several members of our administrative staff has had any interaction with what it's like to be with the Dance Exchange through a "Hallelujah," or any residency for that matter.

LB: Do you see good results?

JG: I do. We've definitely been able to augment the artistic staff in terms of production needs, artistic needs. We've been helping them problem-solve, giving them access to another person they can turn to to get things done. But also it's giving me a good opportunity to see what a residency partnership is, what's good about it, what needs some attention. It makes us think about what do we and don't we to give up within a partnership relationship?

LB: I'd love to get some more specifics, because we are actually talking about a project here. Working with Susie Farr and her staff and the university at large, what have been some of the good, healthy things for a partnership that you've experienced with this one.

JG: The availability of being so close to home. To explore the possibilities and limits of a relationship. Also, when I first met Susie and she introduced me to the facility, she said, "I now have learned the fruits of abundance," and we feel we are able to share this. All this space.

LB: I've never seen a dressing room that good.

JG: It's one of the things that has allowed the project to occur on this scale.

LB: This is the first time I've seen most of the participants be able to be all together all the time for two whole weeks, watching each other, and that sharing that goes on every afternoon, especially across all these age groups. The kids get to be with all these adults and vice versa. It's really a retreat for the whole group. They're a company.

JG: Otherwise we would have seen a lot of people coming in at the last minute. The programming and housing would have been a nightmare.

LB: I want to make sure we get to funding. I'm so interested in artistic companies that have been around for a while. When they get to the point where they're as well known as Liz and the work has the stamp of approval from a large number of foundations and arts councils, do you feel like you will run out of opportunities? Does each funder eventually reach a point where they say, "You've had enough from us and you're not getting any more ever?" Can you make an ongoing partnership?

JG: I think it's possible. This is a very relevant question, because it's an issue that's forced on us anyway because of the economic times. I've been meeting with various foundations and getting information from them about how their funding is going to be changing. What I don't think funders are inclined to engage in for the long term — and I don't think it would be healthy for us as a company to expect — is that there's a continual source of funding at some level for the same thing. That to me isn't interesting. It tells me we've fallen into a rut as a company. From the funder's perspective, they certainly have an interest in reaching a larger community in as many ways as possible. Fortunately that's what the Dance Exchange is all about.

LB: What kinds of problems do you face, now that the big infusion of "Hallelujah" project funding is over?

JG: Funders have traditionally been interested in funding programs, not general support grants and that's what we're all going to start needing real soon. Coming off of "Hallelujah," not having the chance to develop local partnerships to get the local bookings or even pay a lot of attention to that, it's almost like we're going to be penalized for being so successful in this project. We tried to scale down as much as we could from operating costs this year, recognizing that it was going to be difficult to get work this year.

When I came in I said, "What's really important? Let's focus on something really important and let's get it up and running." I always want us at a performance level or a residency level where we have one project in its early stages, another that is well advanced, and a third that's either culminating or on its feet as a functioning program. I think that helps keep you on an even keel. I'm trying to reduce the sine wave of not only funding but also touring. It seems like we've been on this roller coaster, and I think we can consolidate that.

LB: It seem to me like the company deserves a reward for "Hallelujah."

JG: Yes, it would be nice to be rewarded for that. Because it makes it very hard. I asked the company, "Would you do something like this again?" And they said, "Would you keep us out of the financial rebound the year that we stop?" It's gogogogogo and then you hit the brick wall, and the bad economic climate makes it worse.

LB: So, when you look at the next two years are you terrified funding-wise, because everything is tightening up?

JG: I have some trepidations. I think everyone does right now. Our worry is not knowing how bookings are going to go. It's the ripple effect. The arts presenters are not getting funding to do their programming. So we get the double whammy if we don't get direct funding and we're not getting booked. We're looking outside of the arts world for funding. We're approaching people who typically fund senior-based projects, healthcare projects, those kinds of initiatives, as well as education funding. Why are we limiting ourselves to art funding when we also have an impact is in the world of education and in aging?

LB: I sit on a lot of panels, and the opposite is happening. There are people coming to arts funding for healthcare and education projects. There's a good outcome there, but it drains away a tiny pot of money.

JG: But it gives the funders some options and I think they need those.

LB: Do you need any bricks-and-mortar money at this point?

JG: We do have active grant money from the state and the county to remodel. We have a concept of this educational campus. We're also in the duplex next door, which right now is residential and rented. We're basically looking at refurbishing our space, not expanding, but within the interior, reallocating the space that's there. The duplex would be renovated for housing for guest artists or long-term artists-in-residence. There would be some warm-up space, a library where we can look at video, a study space. Then the other building would be strictly studio and administrative space. We'd like a studio that lends itself more to the choreographic process. There would be a beautiful garden setting behind that could be a community gathering spot. So, that's the concept that's on the table and right now the board of directors and the company are doing some thinking about whether that's how want to proceed, and if so, how do we deal with some of the obstacles, like zoning?

LB: In terms of looking at the future financially, are you wondering if that's where you want to put your money?

JG; I would say that's a part of it, but it's not our driver in that thinking. It's more about returning to the question of community, and there are a couple questions: Where do we want that immediate community to be, have we thought that through, what are the implications of being where we are? Secondly: How do we reinvent using our space? We are in this pattern anyway, but we would like to be a focal point for other artists. We rent our studio space for a very nominal fee. We'd like to have an artists' community there, whatever that means.

LB: What about the school?

JG: The school continues. This years we're adding the Youth Exchange back. We didn't have the programming for eight-to-twelve-year-olds, because we didn't have the funding. We were just running teen and community programs.

LB: What is your main objective for the Dance Exchange?

JG: One of my objectives for the Dance Exchange is not only to gain recognition for excellence in artistry and community work, but I also want us to be recognized as a leader in the way a nonprofit should be run. I think the funders want it, in the wake of Enron and WorldCom. I feel like we have a very strong obligation to the funders and I consider it matter of institutional pride. I think it should be a question that funders ask: How are you accounting for our funding and what are you doing to improve your practice? I think that's an area of funding that arts organizations are going to need to help them get through this. I went through this in healthcare, which was not run as a business back in the ‘80s, and you didn't have an option to let things grind to a halt, you had to persevere. I think that is a large reason I was brought in, because they realized that was a strength and focus that they needed: somebody who knew how to get things done within this kind of artistic mission but would make sure the business was going to be viable.

LB: Do you have any interesting earned-income prospects in the future?

JG: I think there are ways that the nonprofit world and the arts world can inform the corporate world. I'm looking at building relationships with corporate partners. I have three corporate partners that we're working with, using the Tool Box and Critical Response technique. I think Critical Response has a great deal of relevance in the corporate sector.

LB: That's going to change the world.

Linda Frye Burnham is co-director of the Community Arts Network.

Original CAN/API publication: March 2003